Elements: Soul of Fire

[blitzen]

Still slogging my way through the game. Yes, at this point it has become a slog, I take long breaks and come back to it. It's a brilliant game, but in fact it is too long and some sections are just too much.

I'm near the end, in the "Strength" section of the three challenges. At least I think it is Strength, I have forgotten which one I chose. I've gone through a garden section and entered a starry area with paths leading to transport pads that don't seem to take me anywhere useful. I've been going in circles for hours and hours only to end up in the same places or get killed and have to start at my last save. At one point I can see a gremlin on a transport pad off to the left but I can't seem to get to him. I'm bored and frustrated and can't figure out what to do. I can't even leave to try a different challenge without having to fight my way back through the long brightly-lit corridor where you aren't allowed to heal or regenerate between fights. I'm considering whether it is worth doing that.

Jeremy, can you tell me what I am supposed to do in the starry area? How do I get to the gremlin on the left? Or have I missed something?

You've made a wonderful game, but it kind of feels like at some point you got lost in the beauty of your creation and failed to consider how the game would be experienced by the user.

[soulcatapult]

Hey Blitzen, glad to see you're still playing. As for the starry area:

Spoiler: show

Where the red line starts, you have to walk across the flashing stars. The other warps are just decoys.

I would really like for you to elaborate on a couple of the points you made, if you don't mind, so that I can obtain a better understanding of the player's mindset:

It's a brilliant game, but in fact it is too long and some sections are just too much.
Can you please elaborate on what sections, and define "too much"? Do you mean the difficulty or the demands of manual dexterity, like the water slides and mine cart sections? And how would you suggest I deal with the length? Is it more in the size/length of the individual areas and dungeons themselves, or the scope of the story overall?

You've made a wonderful game, but it kind of feels like at some point you got lost in the beauty of your creation and failed to consider how the game would be experienced by the user.
I believe this is difficult for many developers (especially one who's just starting out, like me), and is really only something that can be improved via the reception of feedback like yours. Again, are you referring to length and/or difficulty? And how do you personally think I should deal with this?

I really appreciate your thoughtful feedback. Thank you so much.

[blitzen]

Thank you for the help! Such a relief.

When I say the game is too long I mostly mean the number and extent of dungeon areas could be cut down or simplified. There are quite a few moments where the player has fought through a really long complicated section only to realize that they have come to an even longer more complicated section and are nowhere near finished. "Oh man, really?!?" Maybe a few more transport-in-transport-out pads or areas you can shortcut once completed would help with that, they were used very well in earlier parts of the game. It may be one of my personal tics, but I hate feeling like I am "trapped" in a giant dungeon with no way to go but forward.

Some of the challenges like the waterslides are very difficult for people with less than perfect manual dexterity. I have managed to get through them so far after many attempts, but I know you have had to do these challenges for several of the players on this board, so that should be an indication that they are too hard. It may not be obvious to you, but lots of older people enjoy playing these kind of games exactly because you don't need a special fancy controller and great reflexes. I'm sure you'll be able to improve on those in future games. One suggestion would be to make these sections optional "games-within-games" where you can earn rewards if you complete them, but they aren't strictly necessary to proceed.

The storyline itself is really good. I appreciate that even though the game is very long, the background story is easy to follow. Sometimes developers get caught up in explaining the whole complicated mythos they have created and the game starts to turn into some bizarre alternate history lesson. You have mostly avoided that, although a few of the cut scenes do go on a bit. I have really enjoyed the flashback scenes that flesh out each of the characters. You have paid a lot of attention to details and making everything consistent. In terms of characters I rate this game very highly, almost as good as the Laxius Force series.

I hope my feedback has been helpful. I feel bad criticizing, because you really have made an exceptional game. My only real complaint is there are too many areas where I have been "stuck" because I can't figure out the key to moving forward, and going backwards is almost equally difficult. Thank goodness for boards like this!

[soulcatapult]

Once again, Blitzen, thank you very much for your insightful feedback.

When I say the game is too long I mostly mean the number and extent of dungeon areas could be cut down or simplified. There are quite a few moments where the player has fought through a really long complicatedsection only to realize that they have come to an even longer more complicated section and are nowhere near finished. "Oh man, really?!?" Maybe a few more transport-in-transport-out pads or areas you can shortcut once completed would help with that, they were used very well in earlier parts of the game. It may be one of my personal tics, but I hate feeling like I am "trapped" in a giant dungeon with no way to go but forward.

I'm guessing the Cave of Destiny, Cugei's Castle, Omega's Reactor Core, the Elemental Shrine, and possibly the Central Behgar gauntlet are what you're referring to. Maybe I did feel that, toward the end of the game, I should be less generous with the warp pads, but thanks for pointing this out. Also, if you're ever stuck in the Elemental Shrine, you can use the Warp Stone the angel gave you at the entrance to escape. It won't take you back to where you used it from, though.

Some of the challenges like the waterslides are very difficult for people with less than perfect manual dexterity. I have managed to get through them so far after many attempts, but I know you have had to do these challenges for several of the players on this board, so that should be an indication that they are too hard. It may not be obvious to you, but lots of older people enjoy playing these kind of games exactly because you don't need a special fancy controller and great reflexes. I'm sure you'll be able to improve on those in future games. One suggestion would be to make these sections optional "games-within-games" where you can earn rewards if you complete them, but they aren't strictly necessary to proceed.

Yes, I've certainly learned something here. I've actually released an updated version of the game that makes the mine carts optional, but the water slides are more deeply integrated in the layout and flow of the areas they're in, so I left them as-is. But I will certainly keep this in mind in the future.

The storyline itself is really good. I appreciate that even though the game is very long, the background story is easy to follow. Sometimes developers get caught up in explaining the whole complicated mythos they have created and the game starts to turn into some bizarre alternate history lesson. You have mostly avoided that, although a few of the cut scenes do go on a bit. I have really enjoyed the flashback scenes that flesh out each of the characters. You have paid a lot of attention to details and making everything consistent. In terms of characters I rate this game very highly, almost as good as the Laxius Force series.

Thank you so much. This really means a lot to me. The characters, and their development, is what I've always valued most, and it makes me happy to know that it shows.

I hope my feedback has been helpful. I feel bad criticizing, because you really have made an exceptional game. My only real complaint is there are too many areas where I have been "stuck" because I can't figure out the key to moving forward, and going backwards is almost equally difficult. Thank goodness for boards like this!

Don't feel bad. You've been a heck of a lot nicer than some people. I really value the fact that you've actually played through the game and thus can give legitimate constructive feedback. I hate it when people just say the game sucks because of its graphics, without even playing it. That doesn't help me at all. It's my style, and if they don't like it, I can't do anything about that. But feedback along the lines of what you've given, I can really use to better my work. Thanks again.

[blitzen]

Oh yes, I forgot to mention how much I like the graphics. They are definitely different and take a bit of getting used to, but they are fun and unique. Anyone who would let themselves be put off playing the game because of that has a very odd sense of priorities!

[soulcatapult]

Thank you.

EDIT: Fun fact, the town of Nino Bay wasn't in my original vision for the game. It was added very late in development (July 2011) because I really wanted to use one of the songs my dad composed, that previously had no place in the game.

Aw heck, here's my journal entry for it:

2:27 AM 7/3/2011
----------------
Whoa, I'm adding a new town! It's called Nino Bay, and it's huge. "Nino" holds
connotations to children, as Nino Bay is a colony of the Fiyaran Empire; you could
therefore consider it a kind of societal "offspring" . . . the name Nino Bay is kind of
ironic, because the town is so big; in fact, it's probably the biggest town in the game.

I'm moving some equipment and treasure there, to make it worth visiting. But this is
actually the only town in the game that's completely optional (even though you'll
miss out on lots of useful stuff* if you skip it). I'm even using my dad's great
"Sunday Morn" song for it; this was originally going to be saved for Elements II, but
I thought it would speak for the care that went into the town's creation if I gave it
its own unique song.

There are also some juicy tidbits about Emperor Fiyara's childhood, revealed by the
retired imperial officials who live there. Even Ryota has a lot to say (in his
thoughts, anyway), so it's great for the character development of heroes and villains
alike.

* - Just what's in Nino Bay? All right:
Dragon Claws: Sell for over 40,000 gold or save for Reuel.
Cutthroat Dagger: Gives a nice Agility bonus.
Megalodon Tooth: Previously underwater in Cambria; you won't want to miss it!
^ need dynamite and raft to reach
Mattress: Always useful, right?
Meteorite: Raises Moon defense.
^ need rope to reach
EQUIPMENT SHOP
Harpoon
Dao
Scimitar
Shark Skin
Bubbly Tunic
You can also buy all of the status-curing items here, as well as Pillows and Sacks.

The revisit to Fiyara Fortress (and the following scene in Alavon) also wasn't in my original plans:

1:11 AM 5/5/2008
----------------
I'm adding a new chapter between South Islet and Behgar. So the Fiyara Fortress
revisit... know that it originally wasn't a part of my ideas for Elements; the heroes
were just gonna go straight from South Islet to Behgar. But not anymore! This should
beef up the storyline a bit, add a little more tragedy, and breed more hatred for
Emperor Fiyara.

I might post more "fun facts" and/or journal excerpts in the future. You like?

EDIT 2: One more... I just couldn't resist. ^_^

7:44 PM 5/24/2006
-----------------
Project started. Let's hope I do it for real this time.

...Because I had attempted to create Elements in the past, but never followed through. Thank God this time was different!

[Prometheus]

i'll add my 2 cents to some of the comments on overall game balance we just had:

i think one of the tough things about this game (at least compared to some of the more casual offerings out there) is that character strength is very equipment dependent (some skills are not obtained automatically either).. just grinding out levels is not always enough to get past a difficult boss or situation; later in the game even 5 levels might not make much of a difference

there are many dungeons where i would regularly run from the enemies until i could find better equipment and/or a more convenient place to heal while i leveled

enemies also drop some very powerful items but sometimes the drop rate is very low, meaning players will sometimes miss very valuable items that will make their playing experience easier (especially weapons)



if someone asked me the 2 things that i would most like to see changed in the game it would be:

1st: a bestiary that let me check on items i found (especially because some powerful monsters drop NO items and i would reload the fights many times to check).. or something comparable like 'Collectors Book' from the Tales Series

2nd: a better explanation of how some of the stat-improving spells worked because sometimes I couldn't tell how much they increased the stats or how long they lasted

some of the mini-games were admittedly tough but i think having a variety of challenges in a game of this sort is important and they are still a positive - for example i really enjoyed going back through the early of the areas of the game doing a speedrun and finding (SO MANY!!!) shortcuts that i missed


i'm actually hoping someone does a walk-though or item guide at some point because i'm interested in finding additional secrets and items i missed

if anyone is interested on potentially collaborating for a walk-through and/or trying for put together a complete item list i would be interested - you can hit me up via pm or post in this thread

(*provided jeremy does not mind if someone works on creating a guide)

[soulcatapult]

if anyone is interested on potentially collaborating for a walk-through and/or trying for put together a complete item list i would be interested - you can hit me up via pm or post in this thread

(*provided jeremy does not mind if someone works on creating a guide like)

Absolutely, I wouldn't mind at all! I'd be thrilled to see the players collaborating in such a way.
If you have any questions or need clarification on anything, I'll be happy to oblige you.
How exciting! I really hope something comes of this!

And thanks for your feedback, as always.

[blitzen]

Something I forgot to mention earlier: As a woman I am very appreciative that Jeremy did not feel a need to make avatars of his female characters in skimpy outfits showing off their (outrageously large) boobs. This is something that is so common most women just shrug and get on with it, but it's very nice to see a game where the focus is on character development rather than appearance.

[Prometheus]

i thought a made a 2nd post but it seems to have gotten lost somehow


to recap:

streamlining the travel interface somehow (maybe through designating warp points that bring the party to the map) might also be nice and reduce some of the time going through the menu/ unsorted item lists

[soulcatapult]

Something I forgot to mention earlier: As a woman I am very appreciative that Jeremy did not feel a need to make avatars of his female characters in skimpy outfits showing off their (outrageously large) boobs. This is something that is so common most women just shrug and get on with it, but it's very nice to see a game where the focus is on character development rather than appearance.

Thank you for appreciating this. Even though the game might be classified as "fantasy," I always wanted to instill an element of reality (or at least believability) into it. I wanted my characters to seem like people who could exist in the real world (per their emotions, at least). It's pretty much spelled out before the game even starts, in my opening message.

[pammyg]

Hi I have found two keys but can't find third, one outside and one from phoebe, can you tell me where third is please.

Pam

[soulcatapult]

Hi I have found two keys but can't find third, one outside and one from phoebe, can you tell me where third is please.

Pam

Hello, Pam. There are two keys outside; one in a bush just within the front gate of the castle, to the left of the entrance (you can see it sparkling), and one in the upper-left part of the inner courtyard, which you have to fight a trio of guards to obtain.

[pammyg]

Thank you found it. Have done the castle, but after went back to temple came out and only one character, Leonard
don't know how to find rest of party and where to go next.
Probably something simple but stuck.

thank you for your help

Pam

[soulcatapult]

Thank you found it. Have done the castle, but after went back to temple came out and only one character, Leonard
don't know how to find rest of party and where to go next.
Probably something simple but stuck.

thank you for your help

Pam

Try using the Party Ball (from the Item menu) to re-form your party.

As for where to go next, that'd be Alavon Forest. Follow the road south and west from the city, and you should enter an area with autumn-colored trees and a barrier of ice, which Esther can purge. First however, make sure you buy all the new equipment for your characters in the town shops and stock up on healing items like Power Drinks, Myrrh Droplets and so on.